Intruders.1.1

Tue 18 Aug 92  6:29

By: Robin Gober

To: John Stepkowski

Re: Intruders.1.1

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John HI!

 

                             Intruders.1.1.

 

  The following is an interview between Conroy and Vallee.

 

  "CONROY: There seems to be a growing dichotomy among the people who

are concerned about abductions, in that Budd Hopkins, Jerry Clark, and

David Jacobs and others of their colleagues have formed an association

in which seems to be trying to typologize the abduction experience and to

typologize `abductees.' Moreover, they seem to have a rather predetermined

manner of dealing with abductees in their support groups. Whitley, on the

other hand, is more anarchic in his approach to dealing with people

he corresponds with them and meets with them on occasion and insists that,

in essence, the experience is mystical. Whitley has alleged to me that

Hopkins is trying to create a model of abduction which will be acceptable

to people in the social and behavioral sciences. Do you see any

indication of that kind of effort on the part of people who consider

themselves serious ufologists?

 

  VALLEE: Well, you've raised a whole number of things. I think that there

is nothing wrong with trying to come up with a typology or taxonomy

of abductions and abductee and classification and so on. That's one of the

things that science does well, and why not use it? Certainly Budd Hopkins

and Jerry Clark and David Jacobs are the right people to do it.  They have

a lot data and they've had firsthand experience with it. . . .

I think Tom Bullard has done some of that and that's good work, so let's

see how far it goes. Good luck on convincing the social scientists on

anything! I think if you've read the books by Hilary Evans, who is

certainly one of the good minds in this business, you'll see that he

handles the same material in completely different way.

  [But] my concern is not with that kind of activity. I think hypnosis

is often mistaken for a scientific tool that gives you  correct answers

-complete answers- all the time, which is a huge misunderstanding of

hypnosis. I am obviously outside my field, and Budd Hopkins and

David Jacobs will immediately jump on me, and they are right. It's

outside their field,too.

  In the few cases where I have advised use of hypnosis with some witnesses,

I've gone to professional psychiatrists who were M.D.'s and used hypnosis

in clinical practice. And what they told me convinced me of the great,

great care that should be taken when applying hypnosis to this kind of

problem. So, I think that, when hypnosis is done by a researcher who

already knows about the UFO problem and has a strong personal belief,

I think that's scientifically worthless.

 

  CONROY: Do you think it's therapeutically worthless, also?

 

  VALLEE:(Pause) I think it raises some very complex ethical

considerations. I know that some of these researchers say, `Look, nobody

will talk to these people; at least I'm doing some good, I'm giving

them an explanation.' I think there is an interesting ethical debate

there.... Very often, UFO witnesses will tell you, or imply, `You're a

scientist. Please tell me this was a helicopter! Please tell my wife

this was some new prototype from Vandenberg Air Force Base.' You have

to tell them, `No, it wasn't a helicopter, it wasn't a prototype.'

The next question is: `Well, what are those things?' And you have to say,

`We don't know." I think that's the honest reply. Budd [Hopkins] is

infuriated when I say that. He says, `Look, these people need an answer,

and the best answer we have is that they were abducted by extraterrestrails.'

  Well, you know, I don't believe that. My approach to that is to tell

people, `Look science doesn't deal with certainty. Science is not what's

in the science books. Science is addressing the mysteries of the world.

There are many mysteries.... And that's what science is all about.'

  Sure they have been disturbed, but the very fact of being able to talk

to somebody who doesn't deny their experience is therapeutic. I have seen

people to whom I've [suggested], `Let's sit down calmly and go over this.'

  If you have some amount of charisma, or at least trust -if you can

establish a basis of trust and people know that you're not going to sell

them a theory, that you're going to listen to them- you give them permission

and they will tell you things. You see the same thing happen with people

who have been molested when they were children. There are things that

people have never told anybody. When they find someone they can trust,

whom they can rely When they find someone they can trust, whom they can

rely on confidentially, and who shows some regard for them as a person,

then a simple conversation in some coffee shop somewhere can be extremely

therapeutic. You just need permission to look into their own souls, so

to speak, or their own experience. It's a very emotional experience

for both people, and there is an ego trip that takes over ... There is

a power trip associated with that.

  That's the other thing that worries me. I don't believe anymore that

some of the researchers into abductions are doing it for the good of

the people or out of concern for the human race, I think it's become a

huge power trip. That bothers me. There is nothing wrong with having

an ego, nothing wrong with selling books, but you shouldn't be mistaken

about your own motivations."

 

  "CONROY: What you are implying, then, is perhaps the power of Whitley's

narrative derives from the fact that it seems to have given permission

to many, many, people, throughout the country or throughout the world,

who've read his book, to suddenly admit to themselves things that happened

to themselves and tell this to other people.

 

  VALLEE: Yes. Let me complete what I just said.... Philip Klass would

say that hypnosis is done unscientifically and it just dredges up

things that didn't really happen and convinces people that they've been

abducted. I don't believe that. I believe that the hypnosis, if done

unscientifically, clobbers an experience which is indeed a latent

experience and should be retrieved. I think something happened to these

people, I think there is a UFO phenomenon, and to that extent I agree

with Budd Hopkins, I agree with David Jacobs, I agree with Jerry Clark,

that rushing into hypnotizing these people is not the way to do it.

In fact, it's detrimental, because of the fact it overlays preconceived

ideas on top of a very, very complex matrix of images and emotions and

everything else. What Whitley has done is to go farther than anybody

else in describing that matrix.

 

  CONROY: I imagine that you are aware that Hopkins and Clark are

extremely critical of Whitley and regard him as mentally unstable.

 

  VALLEE: Yes.

 

  CONROY: What do you think might be their motivations for doing this?

Whitley claims that it is because they cannot deal with what he calls

the `high strangeness factor' in his experience, and he accuses them of

editing that out of the accounts of abductions that they deal with...

 

  VALLEE: My reading of that is that indeed there is a need to

rationalize a problem at all cost, and that need is satisfied -and

it is a normal drive- if you get rational answers. The problem is that,

of course, there are creatures described in connection with UFOs

that behave in an absurd way. So, now we recapture the rational approach

by saying, `Aha! What they are doing is a very complex scientific

survey of our planet that involves genetic manipulation and so on.'

Again we have succeeded in rerationalizing the experience.

  The problem is that when you look at the theory, of course, it

doesn't explain the facts, because if you were doing genetic manipulation

or scientific surveys of the earth or all that, you obviously wouldn't

do it that way. So, you really have not explained anything, but you

LOOK like you've explained something. The more the facts the continue

to contradict you explanation.', the more frustrating that becomes,

and then you have to lash out at anybody who doesn't quite agree with

you. I have been the target of those attacks, [though] not as much as

Whitley.... There's nothing you can do about it. It's a normal thing.

But I think that as the evidence continues to accumulate, that this

particular theory is not the answer.

 

  CONROY: I get the feeling that you keep a certain distance from the

UFO community.

 

  VALLEE: I see the UFO problem as a subset of a larger problem that I'm

interested in, which is the paranormal in general. Most of the UFO

community is only interested in UFOs they've never heard of some of the

other things that I'm interested in....

  There are many people who are true scientists, true researchers.  I don't

think the answers are going to come from an organized group or any one

particular theory. We are a long way from that, and so I'm not ready

to join anything. I certainly talk to everybody."

 

  _Report on Communion_ Ed Conroy 1989 ISBN 0-688-08864-3

 

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  Now I will throw in some of my own feelings. The question of ethics

that Vallee brings up in the first post is valid. The therapist's

job is to aid the client. The client comes first. With the UFO

guys it seems the theory comes first, not the Contactee.

  Vallee is right is pointing out that Jacobs, Clark, and Hopkins are

not qualified to speak as experts on hypnosis.

  The line about "having to give them (contactees) answers." Really

got my attention. We don't need answers. At best we need a safe place

and a safe person that we can "think out loud" in front of, and

perhaps some training in skills, then we came come up with our own

answers.

  The dangers of ego trips is a real danger. Even professionals slip

up that one. The potential for harm here is very great.

  Think about it. The UFO investigator gets to be part expert, part

guru, part doctor, part confessor, part savior and part therapist.

It would be very hard to turn all of that down.

  Lastly Vallee hits the nail on its head when talking about the

standard theory. The longer UFO groups try to cling to this theory the

further they will get out of touch. This center will not hold.

 

  Hope things are going well there John I am trying to get caught

back up.

 

 * Origin: The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. (1:19/19.17)

PATH: 30027/17 19/19 123/26